SPECIAL: “But my therapist said…” COVID-Informed Therapists Chat

Listen on your favourite podcast app

Transcript below

Ever heard anyone say they can't care about COVID anymore because it's bad for their mental health? Or that we don't owe anyone anything? Or their therapist said people still masking have "COVID anxiety"?

Well, here are three mental health professionals who have a thing or two to say about that! Get ready to meet Pierre, Briana, and Ji-Youn, who share their perspectives on what the Western therapy world is often missing when it comes to COVID and collective care.

Like we say on the show, all systems of oppression are connected.

We recorded this conversation in early November 2024, before the show you know was even online. So this chat special is a bit of a departure from the regular narrative style episodes you’re used to on Public Health is Dead but you are in for some gems. It reaffirms choosing to care about each other by resisting COVID, ableism, and white supremacy. This one feels like a cozy, fireside, deep-chats hang with your most thoughtful friends.

"We keep us safe" has to mean something!

(00:00) Introduction
(02:50) Meet Briana, Pierre, and Ji-Youn
(06:00) Is "COVID anxiety" a real thing?
(10:49) What does years of public health abandonment do to us collectively?
(14:00) Collective care and what we owe each other
(23:33) Relationship breakdowns
(39:31) How to have COVID conversations/set your own boundaries
(53:10) Messages to other therapists
(59:58) SPEAK ON IT, PIERRE!! (if you listen to nothing else, listen to this!)

Find Pierre at Queering Psychology, Find Briana on her website, Find Ji-Youn on their website.

There’s also a directory of Covid Conscious Therapists here.
(PHiD can’t vouch for everyone on there but it’s a good place to start if you’re looking!)

Episode art for “But my therapist said”.

• Transcript

  Daniella: Did you know enslaved people who ran away could be medically diagnosed with "drapetomania", meaning basically, that there was something supposedly mentally wrong with them for wanting to escape enslavement. Obviously this is a completely made up psychological diagnosis from the 1800s to justify enslavement and racism.

  There's a long history of pathologizing people in this way, especially Black people and indigenous people, for resisting our own death and destruction. Disabled people over the centuries have been blamed for having disabilities punished and even killed for it. Black people with disabilities are uniquely vulnerable to police violence and mask bans will likely make that worse.

  As we keep saying on this show, all systems of oppression are connected. 

  For example, right now in Gaza, there are astronomical numbers of disabled people because of Israel's genocide and the injuries caused by the violence of the occupation if they survive.

  Not to mention the severely psychologically traumatizing experience of being so close to death and destruction around you every day.

  There's a long history of limiting access to healthcare, letting sickness run rampant as a tool of control and oppression. Here's looking at you, Canada. 

  It's been said history doesn't necessarily repeat itself, but it sure rhymes.

  Hi there and welcome to Public Health is Dead. I'm your host Daniella, and this episode is different from the usual episodes you get from Public Health is Dead. I recorded this, let's call it a "facilitated chat" with three amazing people I really wanted to make sure were heard on this show, back in late 2024.

  There was and continues to be a media framing -- recently with that evermaskers article -- to paint the people who are still protecting themselves and their communities from COVID as a problem. Many of us have heard people we know, family members, even friends say they just can't think about COVID anymore because it's bad for their mental health, or that people who mask suffer from quote unquote, "COVID anxiety" or that there's something wrong with disabled people (or anyone for that matter) for wanting to survive wanting to survive. 

  Where have we heard this before? 

  In this episode, "But my therapist said..." we are getting into all of that and more, so please step into their office!

  Briana: Hi I'm Briana Mills, pronouns are she/her. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I've been licensed for two years in California. I have severe muscular dystrophy, so, and that's one of the main reasons why I take COVID so seriously. And I have a 17% lung capacity, so, you know, I got all of the, the medical lung issues. So even like regular common colds are a big deal for me. So yeah, that's that's the main reason why I'm super, like “COVID's scary!” 

  Pierre: Hey, uh, I'm Pierre. Uh, I go by he, him pronouns. I am a licensed mental health counsellor in New York and a licensed professional counsellor in Georgia. I've been a therapist in total for 10 years now. I guess I got into somatic therapy right as the pandemic started, so that really coloured my perspective on how to deal with COVID, how to approach COVID, um, noticing the impact COVID has had on our general population, on my clients, et cetera. So I am COVID-informed because I can't ignore it. It has too much of an impact somatically, so, yeah.

  Daniella: Mm-hmm. And are you based in New York?

  Pierre: Yes.

  Daniella: Okay, cool. Yeah, and New York was one of the places that was like really hard hit really early.

  Pierre: Yeah.

  Briana: Mm-hmm.

  Ji-Youn: hello. So lovely to meet you all. Uh, my name is Ji-Youn. I use, they/she pronouns. I am a queer neurodivergent, mad but relatively non-disabled -- I'm like in that gray zone-- Korean settler, femme, immigrant, here in so-called Vancouver. I actually graduated into the pandemic, um, in May, 2020. I have been in the realm of therapy since I was a youth myself, and, um, was doing a lot of like peer support, mad peer support kind of work, um, before entering into my training.

  But yeah, graduated into the pandemic like May, 2020. And, um, near the end of my training I was trying to figure out how to incorporate my political praxis with this, like met with the mental health industrial complex, um, of like WhiteWellnessTM. Um, and I think graduating into, you know, that specific moment in history was quite the moment. And as like a relatively non-disabled person, I think most of my COVID precautions started from a place of leftist, political praxis. And then working more so with housebound disabled folks. They really invited me in to study and, and take seriously, disability justice praxis, uh, which was one of those things that as, many able-bodied leftists do, like ableism was one that I had disregarded for a really long time.

  So, yeah, and now I'm identifying a little bit more as disabled myself. And so very much doing these things for myself as well, as well as the community.

  Daniella: yeah, maybe we can get into, my first question is around this idea of like COVID anxiety, the media's really, really latched on -- (laughs) I see Pierre, you're rolling your eyes--- the media's really latched onto this idea that people who are masking are still taking precautions in 2024, almost 2025, are too anxious and it gets repeated in therapy spaces.

  It gets repeated in all kinds of spaces as a way to like delegitimize people. I'm wondering what each of your reactions are to this feel free to like respond directly to each other. I just wanted to make a space for this conversation. So yeah, go ahead. COVID anxiety, what the hell is that?

  Pierre: It is not real. I just wanted to state just, at least like -- does anxiety come up because we're being totally unsupported during, you know, a global pandemic? Of course. Of course we have survival responses to being neglected and systemically abandoned and abused systemically as well. But the idea that people who are still taking precautions for whatever reason, because someone wears a mask or takes precautions, doesn't mean they're all doing it for the same reasons. So to even define "COVID anxiety" as one distinct phenomena doesn't make any sense. It doesn't even me measure truly what they think they're trying to. And that's how I know that this is a tool.

  Briana: Mm-hmm. I mean, it makes me very angry first of all, mostly because there's this huge stigma with anxiety, right? That it's like all in your head. Um, and therefore it's easily dismissed, right? Which is part of the goal here, I think, right? Just to dismiss it and not care about it. Not think about it. Um, so they just label it as anxiety. Uh, anxiety disorders are supposed to be irrational. That's the main point with anxiety disorders. It's not irrational to fear a virus that is airborne where you're hardly ever certain of who has it. So you're literally breathing around other people, right?

  You share air with others and there's nothing irrational in your mind that says, based on what we've found and what COVID can do to you, that it's irrational. Right? Like there's a difference between anxiety and an anxiety disorder and you know, if you just label something as anxiety. Yeah. I mean, some people have a right to be anxious about this.

  It's a scary thing. I think it's valid to have fear about it. But when you label it as an anxiety disorder, you're saying there's something mentally wrong with the fact that you're afraid of this and that's just, that's not true in my opinion.

  Ji-Youn: Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot about this from the perspective of, um, the mental health industry. I understand the mental health industry as an extension of the state, um, in maintaining, um, like certain body-minds, right? And categorizing body-minds. And it just like, obviously when I started to hear more people talk about this so-called COVID anxiety, it's like really frustrating and I also wasn't surprised 'cause it's like, oh, of course we're going to pathologize a very appropriate response to systemic neglect. Right? And because, because it's the virus but it's like we have this degree of COVID anxiety because all of these, like institutional protections have been completely abandoned. And we're now being penalized and pathologized for continuing to take precautions. Right? 

  And so it just reminds me of like the long, long history of pathologizing very appropriate responses to either systemic neglect or systemic oppression, systemic violence, right?

  And, um, that's pretty on par to what the western mental health industry does. Um, and so I think especially as mental health practitioners, um, it's so important for us to resist the continuation of that pathologization that, um, society that like this, like ableist, colonial, white supremacist society want us to play into. 

  Briana Mills: Mm-hmm. 

  Pierre: Yeah, and you know, um. Something that we're seeing. 'cause we're now like, what, four years, five years into this. And it's not just the initial anxiety and the initial trauma responses anymore. We now this, like this building upon each each other, this every week, every month, every year. Um, just trauma upon trauma, anxiety upon anxiety, is building upon each other.

  And also the anxiety of having to like live a performance while ignoring the truth at the same time. This idea of like by, you know, um, by criminalizing wearing masks or taking COVID precautions by pathologizing, you know, uh, responding to COVID appropriately, it causes a dissonance, right? It, it causes an ambivalence inside people. 'Cause on a deep level, everyone knows something's wrong. You cannot see people's responses to things online, how people drive, how people drive, how people talk to each other -- and I'm not talking about, um, the cognitive piece that everyone likes to throw around on the TL in particular-- I'm also discussing like community relationships, the bonds that break down, people's ability to trust, people's ability to relate and co-regulate with each other. Like all of that is, has been crumbling as a result of people being forced to live this like dual awareness at the same time having to live this lie and have this ugly truth that's also really hard to stomach.

  And it's been causing so much disruption community-wise. Um, I'm seeing like impulsive choices and everyone wants to blame, you know, COVID and cognitive damage, but also a lot of this is a trauma response and a fear response as well.

  Briana: Mhm!

  Daniella: There is this idea that Western therapy, kind of individualizes collective experiences and the number of times I've seen people either directly say to me or, um, say to each other online that they don't owe anyone anything as a response to pretty much like every situation connected to COVID or disease transmission in general -- it seems like people use that phrase as an excuse. It's like people feel like they're owed a certain lifestyle and anything to justify that, especially therapy is like weaponized in that way. I'm wondering have you experienced this? Is this common? What are your thoughts on that?

  Ji-Youn: I think it's the wildest shit when, uh, this is coming from like QTBIPOC, right? Like, so that's the space that I'm in is like politicized leftist QTBIPOC, um, and. I'm like, wait, sorry, what happened to interdependence and like collect-- did we forget the "collective" part to collective liberation? Did we forget the "collective" part to collective safety and collective health?

  Um, yeah. Yeah. And I, and it really is like that conversation around mental health. It's, it's like, whose mental health is being prioritized and whose, uh, wellbeing or wellness is prioritized? Um, and the whole like, um, leaning into abled indulgence and just like total COVID neglect, denialism for my quote unquote mental health.

  I'm like, no, you just wanna use that as an excuse to not take responsibility and accountability for how you are complicit in, perpetuating in, community transmission. And, you know, as like someone who is, who has more proximity to able bodiedness. I really do understand the pull, like, and I'm very honest about that when I talk to people about COVID safety precautions is like, I have deeply felt the pull to just be in denial of everything.

  Um, right. And I think same thing similarly to, to just like look away, right? Because I, I don't quote unquote have to, um, but at least for the left so-called leftists, like, let's be honest about the fact that we're choosing into the myth of individualism when we're doing that and not to use quote unquote mental health as like an excuse.

  Ji-Youn: So I will call my people in like my client community members as well, just like gently, very gently. Um, I make it very clear of like, ah, collective responsibility, we share air. Yeah.

  Briana Mills: Mm-hmm.

  Pierre: Um, I, I think of one: Yes, exactly. I think what I wanna add to that is where like, um, the field of psychology and the field of counselling adds to this problem. Um, I think that things actually said by therapists and therapy-speak are two totally separate things. I think that therapy-speak as it exists online and among in interpersonal relationships is like, um, what people think a therapist would say.

  Um. I've seen, I've seen many a bad therapists in my time, trust me. And it still, it doesn't sound like even the worst therapist, there's like a, a pattern to what's said. You can kind of like, oh, I see what frame of thought you're coming from. Okay, CBT, I see you, you know, like, okay, I, I know what you're doing.

  I got it. I right. You, you kind of know. And then there's like the off the wall stuff that sounds like something someone wrote in a sitcom or in a TikTok video. 

  So I, I wanna separate that, but I do wanna place accountability on the field of psychology, where it belongs. And this idea that everything is intra-psychic, that everything comes from within the client's mind, that everything is like the fault lies within clients.
  And then if you wanna get spicy, you know, if you wanna say that you're more evolved than that, you'll say, okay, it's the family's fault. And then you'll stop there. 

  And, (laughs) and what that's done is you get people walking away or walking out of sessions feeling like, “all I have to worry about is myself”. 

  One, what is community really? Because that doesn't really come up in, I'll keep it on the “I”. It doesn't come up. In my grad program, in my grad program, nobody was talking about community work and co-regulation. And what does mental health look like from a community perspective? How to center the most marginalized or the people with the least resources as a way to bolster collective mental health. Nobody was talking about that. I had to learn that in my off time (laughs).
  
  So imagine then, if that's the way therapists are being trained, what are therapists saying to clients, um, about how to resolve community conflicts? Um, what their obligation is to the people around them if they're feeling anxiety about being the only person wearing a mask in the space and they bring that to therapy? What is the therapist saying? I know what I think about the way I was trained in school and what the training would tell me to say, which it looks like that is what most therapists are saying right now instead of adhering to more so what the ethical code would say, at least. What harm is being done? Are you researching the most up-to-date research on COVID?

  Are you staying on top of it the way that you should be staying, um, on top of your CEs for your license? Before you give any advice on how to deal with any sort of “COVID anxiety” in air quotes that no one can see -- um or any sort of, um, COVID related feelings or relational breakdowns at all--  Do you know anything about the topic of COVID? Or are you resting on your laurels from grad school and from the 101 level CEs? Like, are you pushing yourself? Are you following the ethical code?

  Daniella: Briana. I'm interested in your thoughts about, um, that response. 

  Briana: yeah, no, I could go on for like three hours on this. Uh, well, like Ji-Youn was saying about how it's systemic, right? Like how the mental health field in and of itself is built upon oppressive systems, right? And so, like I've experienced like my own personal therapist who tells me like, “Oh, you know, you just gotta focus on what you can control.”

  And every time I hear that, I like cringe and roll my eyes because it's not, it's not just about me, right? Like everyone's actions affect other people. Everyone's behaviours, everyone's thoughts and feelings. I mean, as a society you live in, you are you have to be responsible for the people around you, right?

  It's not, we live in just this tiny little individualistic bubble. And I think living in America especially, we're brought up to believe, you know, that exact sentiment, we don't owe anyone anything. And the mental health field is built upon that, right? It's built upon these systemic, oppressive systems of, you know, focus on you, don't worry about anybody else. 

  And healing. I really, really wanna like, focus on healing because we can't heal individually, in my opinion. Um, I feel like healing is a place of community and collective, and. If we heal by ourselves, we're not going to fully be able to really give ourselves what we need as far as connection.

  And I feel like healing comes with connection. Um, you know, I really like in my own therapy space to try and get people to be involved somehow, um, in their communities, whatever that looks like. And when Pierre asked what community even is, right? Like to me, my definition of community is one where we are all focusing on something where we can all literally be together in a space and take care of one another in a way that's not necessarily like, oh yeah, let me do this thing for you. Right? But in a space where we're all focusing on something that we want to do and focusing on how to do it, so whatever that is, right? If it's COVID, then great. If it's, you know, other issues, environment, you know, great. You know, but something where you're literally focusing on something and just doing it together.

  Daniella: I guess since we're sort of talking about this, maybe I'll jump to a question about relationships, um, because you've all kind of mentioned how that's been strained and fractured, especially in trying to live with COVID in a way that a lot of people are pretending that this doesn't exist. Um, how are you seeing people feeling these, like fractured relationships, friendships, families? Are you seeing this a lot in your practice?

  Ji-Youn: I mean, for the COVID cautious people, yes. I don't have any non COVID cautious being like, people being like, why are my friends not reaching out to me? You know, that's not happening. Um, but yeah, I think being public about COVID safety precautions. Throughout the entire pandemic, I guess. And also being a quote unquote, more palatable, COVID cautious person having been a quote unquote more palatable, COVID cautious person until the past year, I think, uh, where a lot of like non-disabled or relatively non-disabled COVID cautious-ish people will come to me to talk about their frustrations around that. And yeah, I think like a lot of the rupture and, and there's sometimes it's people in public health, sometimes it's people who are like community organizers and political organizing work, and they're like, “wait, what? I thought we were all on the same page?”
  
  And again, because my, um, kind of like circle of people are folks are generally so-called leftist, QTBIPOC, um. It's really easy to assume that we're gonna be on the same page politically and in terms of our praxis. Um, but when the mask mandates were removed, when the institutional protections were removed in 2022, there was that like awkward period where like some people were still kind of masking-ish and then, and then not, and then I think by like, you know, 2023, but even, you know, yeah, like a lot of people were just falling through.

  And so there was a lot of people do come to me around the, like broken relationships. Um. Due to COVID precautions, or like realizing, oh, like they seem to be on the same page politically about other things, but they're, they've somehow now have this like anti, you know, the like hol holistic health, like anti low key anti-vax, like that whole, the big pharma, like that train.

  And I'm like, I get the critique of big pharma, but like, we cannot be going down that route that far. Right. Um, but yeah, I think there's like a lot of grief there and especially for folks who have been doing COVID safety precautions more from a place of political praxis and not due to their own perceived sense of risk for their own health.

  Folks have been a lot more unstable in their own practices too. Like really just feeling that pull towards COVID denialism because they don't wanna be the only one masking or they don't wanna be the only one caring about this thing amongst a group of people. I navigate, you know, like those griefs and, and the frustrations with a lot of those folks while also being like, okay, but you can't abandon us.

  Like, we gotta keep going and we'll name the fact, and I name, you know, I name, I've been naming that too, of like, these are the ways that I really feel the pull of COVID denialism as someone with more proximity to able-bodiedness. So let's just like say that part out loud together, and then like, hold each other accountable and like, not abandoning them entirely.

  Right. Um, but yeah, the, I think like. The biggest thing is around relationships and then just isolation. 'cause there are so many, like house bound folks as well, who are living in complete isolations and they can't even find COVID safe enough care workers to come do in-person care support work. Right. Um, and I've been, you know, helping navigate that for a couple of folks.

  And it's, it's really rough because it's, and then as a therapist, it's like, okay, well what's the actual useful thing? Like, what's the point of therapy at this point? Is kind of the question sometimes. And I'm like, okay, well we just, we gotta mask up. The most helpful thing I can do for this client community member is for me to be like super secure in my practices and invite everyone else in my community to do that too.

  Right. But yeah, I think there's just like a lot of rupture, um, and isolation due to COVID. And, um, yeah, like what are the strategies? What do we do?

  Pierre: I have something I think I see, um, or a scenario I see more often is, um, COVID revealing ruptures that were always there. Or COVID exacerbating things or making things worse. Dynamics that were kind of almost always in play or have been in play for years.

  Things that could have been ignored or have been ignored for years, but now kind of COVID holding up a mirror to certain situations and dynamics. And not just COVID the virus specifically, which in some ways yes. Um, but also everything COVID-related and COVID-related fallouts. So like work and labour shortages and what that does to a workplace and what that does to coworker relationships or like, um, maybe really liking a job and then having all COVID protections being taken away and having then to shift careers or pivot in careers, losing all of those relationships and connections that you had before because everyone has "moved on" or like living with someone who you thought was safe or you thought that household was gonna be safe, and that could be your childhood home. You could have lost access to your childhood home over COVID, not because it's physically gone, but because it's not safe for you to eat there anymore or sleep there anymore.

  Roommates or spouses or friends that you thought you were going to be with forever, you know, had your old retirement life with this person planned out. And all of a sudden you're realizing not only will this person not do small inconvenient things to protect me and to save my life, but if I were to get sick, this person would leave me and would sacrifice me for something like coffee or a drink or eating a, a meal in, in public, et cetera, et cetera.

  Um, so I think that's what I've been seeing the most. And that the grief of losing relationships with people who still exist, who still wander around, who are still on Instagram posting or who will text you their photos and they're living a, a parallel life to you and kind of leaving you behind. Um, so it's like grieving the timeline that you could have had, grieving the relationships you could have had grieving the version of yourself you were on track to be, and the relationship with yourself that you used to have.

  A few of my clients were previously able and are now disabled, and now are dealing with a lot of grief, a lot of internalized ableism, a lot of self hate and just and disappointment, and not only just navigating their own survival responses in their relationship with their bodies, their relationship to movement, the relationship to their mind, their relationship to the people in their lives who are now their caretakers, who may not have ever care-taken ever in their lives.

  So the resentment that can come when someone takes on the role of caretaking without fully understanding what that means, um, and the resentment that comes that the disabled person didn't ask for. You know? And just all of the…all of the cracks and uncertainties in relationships that were revealed in stark contrast, suddenly for people, um, that have just caused a lot of, um, hardship.

  Briana: Um, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of resentment, you know, since the global narrative, especially itself, has shifted away from community and responsibility and public health in general (laughs) Um, and I think a lot of people are just going based off of that narrative, you know.

  So speaking as someone who is very high risk, um, and a lot of people that I know who are very high risk, a lot of people see what we're doing as a choice and, you know, okay, well, technically yes, okay. It is a choice, but the choice not to is basically like saying you don't value your life. Which is not really a choice in my opinion. Um, so you know, when people say like, oh, you know, you are choosing to isolate or you're choosing to, you know, be alone or whatever, it's like, no, I literally cannot make the choice not to because I could become disabled further or possibly die. So it's not a choice and, I'm not talking specifically just myself, like so many people out there.

  And I'm so grateful for the allies that choose to be COVID cautious, even though they quote unquote don't have to. Which I value a lot, but essentially the people who have no choice are pretty much being forced into isolation. I try to tie that back to, you know, when COVID first started and we had those lockdowns.

  There were a lot of people who became severely depressed and, you know, very lonely and very, you know, a lot of them feel like they couldn't handle it. And I try to relate them back to that feeling right, of like, do you remember how hard that was for you? Do you remember how difficult that was? Imagine how it is now for people who don't have that option.

  Right? And like, trying to find a way for them to understand, because I think oftentimes people just assume, oh, well, you know, they're just, again, dismissiveness, right? It's just anxiety. It's just in their head. They're, they're crazy, you know, quote unquote crazy. And it's like, well, if you can try to find some kind of connection to where people who are no longer COVID cautious can kind of understand, try to get to some level of empathy, uh, then I feel like that's where you can try to at least repair some of those relationships. Right. Um, because friends, family, you know, marriages, a lot of them are ending because, oh, well you're choosing to do that, that's your decision. And that's just not true.

  Ji-Youn: Yeah, and to add to that, Briana, it's like we're never turning it around and saying, well, you're choosing to abandon us. We're not being, like, you're choosing to be in denial. You are choosing to ignore all of what we've learned in the past few years. Um, and so putting that onus only on the people who are most at risk and those who are disabled, and the folks who understand how abledness is so precarious, um, to like, put that on us as our problem, right?

  Versus like, uh, versus like, oh, like, no, you all have, you have abandoned me. And I think coming back to relationships, it's like, I think COVID has really brought forth people's relationships with feedback and conflict of like, I don't think I've, you know, political accountability, like accountability is of course a thing, but I don't think I've had to do this many check-ins about my friends' political practice and integrity. I've never had to do it to this degree.
  
  Like I, I have the COVID talk with most of my friends, minimum once a year. Usually more like twice a year of like, so where are you at with your precautions? What are you, where are you doing? Like, have you been more lenient, you know, what's more doable for you? Um, because it, it, uh, impacts not only, but it, because it impacts not only like their political practice, but like our relating with one another, right? Like, I can't see you if you're not safe enough for me to see you in person. 

  And so it's been bringing up a lot of conversations around like, how do I call these people in? Or how do I tell them, "Hey, this isn't cool". Um, and so I think we've, yeah, in a lot of my sessions like we've been doing a lot of conflict, you know, skills related to conflict and skills related to feedback and requests.

  And this is something that I've really been learning around, um, COVID safety practices. 'cause in the beginning I was more of the like, oh, you should just know because, moral-- morality, right? And like, we, we should just, you should just know what the right thing to do is. And then I learned, oh, that doesn't actually work to get people to do the quote unquote right thing.

  And so how do we get more specific about our requests and the check-in conversations being like, "Hey, like I noticed that you went to that event that was super high risk. Like what was your decision making in that?" Right? Um, being able to have these hard confrontation conversations in ways that are attempting at maintaining and repairing relationship so that we don't just walk away.

  'Cause that is something that I really have wanted to do, is just to like, like, fuck it. You all don't get it. I'm just gonna not, I'm just gonna not. And go find other people. But it's like doing that assessment of like, okay, which people are worth my time in terms of inviting them in and doing that work of inviting them in because yes, they, they do like, our hands do need to be held, unfortunately.

  It's like with, you know, any other issue of like working with straight people or white folks or like, you know, like wealth, like class privileged people. It's just like, yep. Like I know it's uncomfortable, but you know, you gotta do this thing for the collective. Um, yeah, so a lot of around conflict.

  Daniella: Do you all have tips for people who might be listening to this about how you have those conversations? Like, I know I have struggled with that and been misunderstood and it's blown up in my face. How do you have those conversations with people? Because sometimes it feels like people are moving backwards towards the edge of a cliff, is how I've described it. And I'm like, oh my God, there is a cliff. You're going to fall off the edge of the cliff. And they're like, no, you're ruining my life. You're no fun. Bye. 

  Pierre: I guess in terms of like. Looking at the person, looking at the relationship, looking at the history, looking at the dynamics, looking at what's at stake. Do you want to spend energy doing this with this person? 'Cause it's like not, not every person. Not every person. There are, there are people who are a hundred percent not taking cover precautions on purpose. it reminds me of, like on Twitter, I'm constantly telling people, like, look at the bio before responding to people. Look and see if that profile's real. Are they a troll? What are they really trying to do here before you go back and forth with someone. 

  I would say that even if you, in your personal life, even if the person is related to you, assess your capacity, assess the relationship. If this person has a history of doing things, regardless of how it's made you feel or how it affects you, that's who they are.

  And maybe do not spend months of your time, giving them COVID information and trying to get them to change. They are who they are. You know who they are. Let them go. Like, let them be who they wanna be and protect yourself. Um, and then there's gonna be people in your life who are actually in community with you. 'Cause just 'cause someone is in your life or is in proximity to you, doesn't mean that they're your community. 

  Um, community. Like, like, um, Briana, like you said before, it's, it's an action. It's a decision to work together towards a goal. So just 'cause someone is genetically related to just 'cause they share space with you doesn't mean that person is your community not to be like the bad person.

  Especially five years in, they're not in your community and they're not trying to hear you. Don't waste your time. Like your energy is really precious. Four or five years into this, most of our capacities are very low. And we have to, you know, take from Peter to pay Paul most of, in most areas in our life, including energy.

  So really think about, is this where I wanna spend my energy? Is this person going to be able to receive what I'm going to say? Is this the right time for them to hear it? Should I wait? You may wanna give them the COVID information right when they catch COVID or right after they recover and they're not receptive? Leave it alone. 

  They'll let you know when they're ready. Most of the people who have come the back to me, which is very few by the way (laughs) who've come back to been like jk, tell me about COVID. Um, I literally just lived my own life and modelled COVID behaviour every time they saw me. I was PPE-ed up every, I was still doing what I needed to do, regardless of what they were doing, and the people who care will circle back. 

  I also love the point of like, we can't spend time with each other if you're not adhering to the basic levels of safety, emphasizing that boundary for yourself. What is safe for you, that's a really good compass. Whenever there's some conflict around like what COVID precautions should be taken, when that person's like, “You're trapping me, you hate me, you're not any fun.”

  It's like, okay, well at the end of the day, what will keep me safe? And if that means I need to take a pause from engaging in certain behaviors or spending certain kinds of time around certain people, maybe that person needs to be a phone call instead or find other ways.

  But at the end of the day, um. at least what helps me is I think about the commitments I've made to people in my life, whether it's the commitment to myself that I'm going to be, you know, or at least I'm gonna try to be, I'm have no control of the future, but I wanna have a head full of grey, in my garden, putting hands in dirt. I promised myself I would do that. 

  Or the obligations I have to my household to make sure I'm taking care of things. The obligations to my clients to make sure that I at least try to stay healthy enough to support them. So every time I'm in conflict with someone around COVID precautions, I ask myself: “Does what they wanna do, contradict with the covenants I've already made, with the promises I've already made?” And that kind of helps me with my compass. 'cause it's not just me being mean, it's the promises I've made to other people and I have to honour those promises. So, you know.

  Briana: I really love that, Pierre. Um, yeah, especially the energy piece, right? Because like. Capitalism, man, (laughs) demands like so much energy. Um, but going based on like, you know, how to have that conversation, um, I think, you know, I don't wanna like sound like a broken record or anything, but I think it's just informing them, just giving them the information and if they take it, they take it. And if they don't, they don't.

  You know, you can't convince people. And that's one of the other things that I really have to remind people in therapy is like, you can't control other people. You know, as much as you want to, as much as you wanna, like just say stop doing these things. Like, you have to live with the fact that people are going to make their own decisions, even if they're harmful.

  You know, I, I don't necessarily love the whole radical acceptance thing, but sometimes this has to be like a radical acceptance of, okay, you know, this is how they're gonna be and I have to make peace with that. Um, you know, you can try and convince someone as much as you want, uh, but yeah, it just comes down to the other person.

  Ji-Youn: I might be coming from like a little different positionality because of my, I don't identify as like totally non-disabled anymore because of, um, previous infections. But, you know, in the grand scheme of things, um, a lot of proximity to able bodiedness. And so I kind of saw it like as my role to do a type of bridge building between like non-disabled QTBIPOC leftists who felt like the most approachable community of people in my life to do the bridge building between them and like my disabled housebound, you know, um, high risk, uh, community members.

  And so, um, my approach to it has been predominantly around like gray zone approach and requests around what feels doable. And these, and those two things are like the same ways in which I have been able to not abandon COVID safety myself. So like I know it worked for me, and so that's why I've been like using it with my other, um, relatively non-disabled community members.

  And so I'll do, like, I think it, I started with a lot of, um, like indirect exposure, just like reminding people that COVID is a thing in terms of like my own access needs. So, um, I, I do have a few friends who don't mask anywhere. The, thankfully the majority of my community members and friends do mask in public indoor spaces because we slash I have like really fucking put in that effort. Um, even though a lot of them will still like indoor dine for example. And that is how they, that is the abled indulgence that they will choose into, but. Um, with people I'll be like, Hey, like I'm still practicing safety precautions. Um, are you cool with a walk outdoors? And in BC Canada? Um, we have or, for now, not really for the foreseeable, I mean, who knows, but um, for now we have access to rapid tests, um, at all of the pharmacies.

  And so it's been a pretty easy request for me to make of people who are not COVID cautious to be like, can we hang out outside? And are you open to rapid testing? Um, twice before we meet up? And so, because I am always asking for that as a request. And then, and then I, I say, would that be doable for you?

  And most of the time they're like, yeah, not a problem. Sometimes I'll be like, are you, would you be open to wearing a mask with me? Um, that might be like, not as doable, but it's been that balance between like, what is doable versus what, and they're like, yeah. Like, I'm willing to do that even though that's not something I do in my everyday.

  Versus like, what's, what is starting to now feel like an imposition? Like you're, you're making me feel like I have to do this thing. Um, and I've been, I have navigated that, especially with my family members who are not, um, as COVID cautious. And so like home has not been a safe place for me 'cause it's where I've gotten two of my infections.

  Um, but that's why, like with my sister and I as well, like she won't mask on at like the work office, but she will mask on public transit and for, and she won't mask at the gym, but she'll mask everywhere else in public indoor spaces. And so I'll ask like, does it feel doable for you to like mask on public transit?

  Does it feel doable to mask in these other places where disabled folks are like, don't have an option to not be there? Um, and so those like simple requests have been doable. And then, you know, I'll be like, oh, like would you be open to doing this thing? And then she'll like frown a little and then I’ll be like, okay, like I, I hear that that's kind of your extent for you. Then I will take what you can do. 

  And so it's been a lot of that like really slow. I've been able to like build that up with a lot of community members in my life over the years. 'Cause I haven't comp-- I've never stopped completely with my own precautions.

  But I have seen this impatience actually from people who, who did go like abandon COVID safety precautions for like a year or two and then due to whatever circumstances, they're coming back to COVID safety precautions.

  And they are having to deal with like the frustration of trying to explain why they've changed and um, to their friends. And this has happened to people who are close to me too. And I've had to tell them like, of course your friends are confused because you weren't doing it for so long and now you are.

  And it is a big drastic change. Right. And it's actually if, and especially as, and I, I've told this to even like strangers who like recognize me, um, in, in public where I was like, if you had the able bodied privilege. To be in denial of COVID for like during the time that you did, to not mask it. You have to be patient with your people in trying to invite them in, right?

  Like it's not like people who have been COVID cautious or people who have been disabled have been patient and putting in the work for years. You don't get to just like now come in and be like, why don't my friends get it? You know, like you have to put in that work. You have to be patient. It's like, take the time, like do the gray zone thing of like what's doable.

  Make small requests and add small requests to small requests to small requests and just like slowly expose people to, um, increased degrees of precautions, right? Because it's taken me years and it took me like years to quit indoor dining for example, like that was the thing that I knew I needed to do. And I would tell my disabled friends that, and I'd say, I know I'm not safe enough for us to be hanging out indoors because this is an activity that I partake in. I know it's abled, indulgence. Right. I know I'm contributing to community transmission, but we have that informed consent and I'm able to explain why I was doing that at that time. So yeah, gray zone approach and small requests of what feels doable. Um, and like that indirect or sometimes direct, like slow, gentle ish exposure is what I want to recommend.

  I want like a little moment for us to talk about the therapists.

  Daniella: Yes. Go for it!

  Ji-Youn: yeah, I felt like really abandoned by again, the so-called leftist QTBIPOC so-called anti-oppressive therapists.

  Um, like that community of people have been so important for me as a newer, they were so important to me, for me to graduate into the pandemic in 2020 where I really thought I had to be, um, you know, non-politicized. I thought I had to do the WhiteTherapyTM thing. And to find these leftist QTIBPOC practitioners on the internet was so life affirming for me.

  And I was able to cultivate all these relationships with them and build and like, get support in my own line of work as well. Um, 'cause I was going to go the nonprofit route and then, you know, pandemic. So like I ended up in private practice and so yeah, like they were so important to me. And then again, it's just that, that abandonment and that betrayal. Right? 

  And especially given like I have that disappointment and grief in. Just like with queer and trans BIPOC in general, but I think with healthcare workers, and especially therapists where we have so much social power in the pathologization of responses and we have so much power in in the shaping of societal narratives about what is healthy and unhealthy. And to see QTBIPOC therapists who have abandoned COVID or minimize COVID, or even just not even, or even just not talking about COVID is a problem for me, right? Or showing their unmasked faces in public settings is a problem for me. You're still perpetuating the narrative of COVID as in the past tense, and so I just wanna name like the grief, and I do know that it's, it is hard enough as it is to be multiply marginalized practitioners in this like very cis white wellness industry, but that doesn't mean we get to abandon our own people, right? Um, and so I think it's really important for mental health practitioners to implicate ourselves in, um, perpetuating the very things that we claim to be against.

  Um, especially given our social power. And as you said, Daniella, of like those things around, like my therapist said, yeah, like really wanna just call my people in.

  Briana: yeah, I, oh gosh, I, so again, I could go on and on about this, but, so the ableism within the mental health field, uh, doesn't surprise me. It never has. Um, I can't tell you the amount of therapists that I've had who. Uh, just are extremely ableist towards me, um, growing up. And that's exactly why I decided to become a therapist in the first place, is because I wanted to deconstruct the ableism from within and point out to therapists that like, your ableism is literally harming your clients.

  Um, like you could traumatize them further. And I've had, like, I, I am just gonna like put like some personal stuff, but like, I've had a therapist literally tell me when I was like 12, that if I wanted someone to date me, I'd have to pay them because I'm disabled and no one will ever find me attractive. And like that is literally, I carried that around with me for like 10 years of my life. And like, I don't think therapists truly understand the level of harm that ableism plays. And I honestly don't even think they understand what ableism is. Like therapists don't even know what, you know, what the term means when I bring up ableism, they're like, oh, like what is that?I've never heard of it. Like, most people just are so clueless because it's not taught in our grad school programs, it's not taught in any school. Like really. Um, I mean, I shouldn't say any. I'm sure it's taught in some schools, but, you know, it's, it's extremely rare. So, um, yeah, so now that like therapists are, a lot of therapists are under this mentality of, you know, well you're healthy, quote, unquote healthy, like you are able, able-bodied and so.

  You have no reason to be cautious, right? Like, you know, and so they, they have these thoughts for themselves, which is, well, I'm healthy, I'm able bodied, I'm okay. You know, it's just a cold. Which like colds can be harmful, you know, in and of themselves. So like they're of that mentality, right? They're of that ableist mentality of, this won't hurt me. I can get it as many times as I want, and I'm gonna be okay. Because for them to admit anything else is too much for them. You know? They don't wanna admit that they're vulnerable, they don't wanna admit that they could become disabled any second of their lives, you know, and they put that on their clients.

  I'm not saying every single therapist, but you know, it's, it's really common. Um, and it, yeah, it's, it's heartbreaking for me and it's extremely dangerous and harmful for therapists to just say like, oh yeah, just go out and live your life like, you'll be fine. You know, because you don't know if that's gonna be the case. The ableism is real in the mental health field.

  Pierre: Yeah. Um, I think what I want to add to this is there's still so much about this virus and the fallout of it, sociopolitically and that we don't know. And to tell clients they have nothing to worry about, not only is that a danger for themselves, right, for their own bodies, their own nervous systems, et cetera, but what that could potentially do to the therapeutic relationship: you told your client there was nothing to worry about. They get sick. There are things to worry about. What does that do to the relationship?

  Like I feel like, um, you know, the two of you are being really great, large, wide, systemic scale things and I feel like, um, also, I feel like therapists need to hear– since everything is so intra-psychic and since everything is only in the, the office, you know, since that's only where we're allowed to talk about, fine– this will harm your relationship with your client. 

  Um, this will also harm you. I've had, clients die of COVID and like I still think about them. You don't forget your clients ever. And you feel … there’s something that sticks with you when a client dies and it has nothing to do with you. When it's a surprise when you're minding your business, living life and then all of a sudden, you know, you get that email or that call from their family member or their spouse or something like that.

  And then for it to be the pandemic is a whole level of trauma there. So then for the therapists out there, what then additional level of pain comes with the fact that you told them there was nothing to worry about? Why do that? Again, like I said earlier, the same way that you're expected to keep up with the research of the latest, you know, um, the latest behavioral theory, the latest somatic theory, the latest cognitive theory, IFS, Gottman, da da, da, da, it's also your obligation to stay abreast of public health. It's all connected. The mind and body are connected deep down, you know this. And so do you want to give your client the wrong information? Can you live with that? You know, is, is um, seeing the client in person or telling them everything is okay?

  Is that worth harm to them? Is that worth harm to you? Is that worth the rupture in the relationship? Is that worth the damage of trust? 

  We're supposed to be modeling behavior and being in relationship. That's what therapy is. We're modeling how to be in a healthy relationship with clients so they can practice what safety and a healthy relationship feels like with us.

  So if we are neglecting them by not doing our research, when we have more power, if we're abandoning them, if we are serving as an arm of the state and they are harmed, can you live with that? Are you cool with that? Are you sure? I'm just, I can't live with that. And on top of my personal reasons why I, um, still follow COVID precautions to this day, I do not wanna get that call from a family member or from someone's community that they caught COVID and something happened to them and I was one of the many voices that said everything was okay when deep down we all know everything is not okay. 

  Face your own fears, therapists. Face your survival responses. Regulate yourself, co-regulate yourself. Read the academic articles. Ground yourself and then read body scan and then read, you know, the tools.

  Eat a snack, go engage in some movement. Walk the talk. Do the things you tell your clients to do, and read the research so you know for yourself. Be informed. Don't lie to your clients 'cause it makes you feel good. That's not, that's not right and you know that's not right.

  Briana: Amen!

  Thanks for listening to this conversation episode of Public Health is Dead. This show is created, hosted, written, edited, and produced by me, Daniella Barreto.

  You can find more info about the show at public health is dead .com there’s also a link to chip in to support production if you’d like to. This is an independent production which means all of this happens out of pocket. 

CREDITS

Public Health is Dead is created, hosted, written, produced and edited by Daniella Barreto.
Outro music for this episode by Alexandria Maillot.